---------------------------------------------------------------------- Apple II RoundTable =================== Real Time Conference Transcript ------------------------------- Guest : Tony Vece, Zip Technologies Topic : Questions and Answers About Zip Products Date : November 6, 1990 Select item 5 on the A2 main menu for a complete schedule of upcoming A2 RTCs. For even more information, see Bulletin Board Category 3. Copyright (C) 1990 by the Apple II RoundTable of GEnie. All rights reserved. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- <[ Jeff ] A2.JEFFH> I would like to introduce our guest for tonight's RTC. Tony's here to talk about their new line of GS accelerators. Any opening comments, Tony? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Hello all - I'm Tony Vece from Zip Technology. We have most recently introduced a line of GS accelerators. Any discussion is open - speak your mind - I'm all ears and will answer your questions as well as is sub-humanly possible - So let's do it. <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I just want to say that you have an excellent product in the Zip GSX...It has not crashed on me yet, unlike my previous TWGS...And I believe that there is a noticeable speed difference over the TWGS...The expandability features of the card are outstanding...and the holder for the original 65C816 is a novel idea...Any comments? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> We appreciate your excitement over the product - it has been a long time coming - as you probably now...We are working at present on the upgrade situation and in getting the 1500 series off the ground. <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> What is the status on increasing the speed and cache size? What time frame are we anticipating? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Probably looks like around the mid to end of month <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Interesting. Okay, I will yield the floor for now. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Thanks Tyler! Ah, what's it gonna cost me to upgrade the to the max? From you, and if I buy the stuff myself through other sources. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> To upgrade - the current mindset here is to send us the board - we replace the items needing to changed, test it inhouse to make sure it's operating at it's rated speed correctly - upgrade the cache to the high-speed values and get you 32k all for about $175 - then turn it around to you same day UPS blue. SAs to yourself - I don't know the going prices Ok, so the user upgrades are on the back-burner temporarily huh? Second question: How about the Multi-Kache? I have a 10Mhz w/ SCSI option, and would hate for problems to crop up ala the RamFAST. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> No prob with MultiKache - It was retested when the RamFAST bug cropped up. Super! <[ Kent ] DRACO> Welcome Tony, thanks for joining us. Will you be at AppleFest '90, and will you have "deliverable" product to show us? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Sure - on BOTH counts. <[ Kent ] DRACO> Good to see you back online here Tony. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Thanks My Man! I have heard there are 3 gs accelerators, why? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> We have both slot-based and processor socket-only based accelerators in store for the GS public - some people have ALL their slots filled or would like a low-cost, non-upgradeable item (such as schools, etc.) thus we are leaving ALL our options open - remember, right now the "techies" are buying the ZipGSX, but in time your average Joe Schmo will want one - but the least expensive one may impress him more than all the features of the ZipGSX. Have all of the previous problems been corrected, i.e. zip chip regular and have the users been resupplied? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> You are talking OLD news - but yes it has been accomplished...it seems eons ago... short eons hehehe <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Life is continuous change.... <[Doug] D.DEXHEIMER> Maybe you could start off by explaining what the new ZipGSX is, and how it is different from the other accelerators that are or were on the market. What are its advantages, and what applications are going to benefit most from it? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Well - as there is only one competitor - I'll explain the simple difference between the ZipGSX and it. - Here goes: We 200 milliamps They 1.2 amps We 8 MHz/16k cache They 7 MHz 8k cache We expandable to 10 MHz/64k cache They We 6 ICs on board They over 60 We CDA/CDEV/App/INIT AND HyperStudio install stack! They CDA We slot 1 to 4 They (as far as I know - tell me if I'm wrong) slot 2-3 We 816 storage They I think that is enough to start with. <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> 3-4 <[Doug] D.DEXHEIMER> Secondly, what problems am I going to experience with my Ramfast SCSI card which is already in slot #6 when I install your Zip GSX? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> If you have the RamFAST fix installed - none - contact us for retrofit. <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I just wanted to let the good folks know that the Zip GSX works fine from slot 6 with a cable extender. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> I knew you'd try it... Great! <[Doug] D.DEXHEIMER> Thanks Tony, that's all for the time being! <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Thanks Doug! <[Kev] K.MCCANN2> I'm deciding between getting your upper socket GS accelerator (yes, I forgot the model # ;), or the ZipGSX. My primary question is if only the ZipGSX can be upgraded to higher MHZ than the socket based model? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> You are correct - only the GSX can be upgradeable in regard to speed or cache. GA <[Kev] K.MCCANN2> Okay thanks. Guess that decides the GSX for me. <[David] D.MEYER1> Maybe I got here too late, so would you please repeat what the ZipGS models are, what the retail prices are, and what their differences are? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> All right Here Goes: ZipGSX model 1600 retail $350 - special price $279 ZipChipGS Plus model 1525 retail $300 - special - I don't remember ZipChipGS model 1500 retail $250 - special - I don't remember either - check the incider ad... <[David] D.MEYER1> How long are the special prices good for? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> I think 12/31/90 <[David] D.MEYER1> The 1600 is slot based, the others are socket based? correct? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Yes, correct - all use packaged parts - no die for us!!! <[David] D.MEYER1> I have one last question ...Does the Zip Chip IIc work with AE Ram Express? I heard about problems with Apple's card. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Only Apples card had the bug - no one else.... ! <[David] D.MEYER1> Great. Thanks for the info, Tony. and Great work. <[Ski] M.WOLINSKI2> First, I wish I'd have waited for the Zip. My TWGS is sitting on the floor, dead, next to me. Question: How much room does the 1500 models take up? Any problems with my VOC in slot 3? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> 2 inches by 3 inches - I believe. And both Dave Ely and I have tried the VOC with the little card - no probs! <[Ski] M.WOLINSKI2> Secondly, any upgrade path for us _poor_ TWGS owners...(Yeah, Right!)...and Zip isn't going to fade to the mac world like "They" are, are you? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Don't know if we will offer an upgrade to users of competing accelerators - no names mentioned here! - we are thinking about it (maybe a free upgrade or two for the trade-in, I don't know) - and sure - we'll probably use our patented technology in other computer platforms - but we ALWAYS remain loyal to our bread-and-butter customers - the Apple II user. We will continue to support and enhance the II line as long as there are users out there wiling to by our product. <[Ski] M.WOLINSKI2> If you do offer an upgrade, I'm here and waiting. Thanks. <[Chip] C.WELCH3> Ok, how do the accelerators work with Apple DMA SCSI card? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Just great - We've NEVER had a prob with them on the ZipGSX - the ZipChipGS Plus and the ZipChipGS with DMA upgrade kit work great too. <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I just wanted to say that I can personally vouch for no problems found between the Zip GSX and the Apple DMA SCSI card. <[Chip] C.WELCH3> How soon can I get a 10 MHz 64K cache GSX and how much more will it cost me? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> End of month - as far as I know about $250 for the complete package... <[Chip] C.WELCH3> $250 over the $279 special? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Chip - the processors we use for 10 MHz are in VERY short quantity - supply and demand, as the saying goes. <[Chip] C.WELCH3> :) Ok, I'll wait then. That's all the ?'s for me. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Thanks! Chip. <[Joseph] J.WEEKS4> I keep hearing of those who already have received a ZIPGS (from QC). I ordered from you the day you gave the GA. When can I expect to receive same? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> If I was by the computer system (and it was up today!) I could see where you stand. We keep shipping out every day so be expecting it. <[Joseph] J.WEEKS4> Will it have the RamFast fix.. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Contact us - if it hasn't gone out yet we will make sure it has the fix on it. Otherwise - call for RMA # and we'll take care of it for you. <[Joseph] J.WEEKS4> Thanks that's all.. Good Job...!!! <[Pete] P.LIGHTNER> Ok. I have no problem with my TWGS on my ROM 01 mutant, but I have more problems than I wish to count with my ROM 03. Can we expect to have ROM 03 compatibility?? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> You betcha - NO problems there! I'm running out of one right now! GA <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I'll vouch for that too. <[Pete] P.LIGHTNER> I would appreciate that. I tire very rapidly with continuous reboots. Thanks. <[Jeff] R.LODOEN> Is the ZipChipGS 1500 already released, or are you just taking orders for it? If not, when? (very excited) <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> It will be released probably late December. We are concentrating on the model 1600 right now - with all the upgrades and last minute fixes and improvements to make it a SOLID, SOLID product! <[Jeff] R.LODOEN> I'd also like to say I was very pleased with all the progress reports... <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Thanks! my pleasure, .... <[ CRT ] INTERPLAY.> I've got a TWGS running at 10Mhz.. It crashes! If I upgrade the ZIP GSX, will it do the same? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Not if I can help it! Seriously, we have been running 10 MHz for some time now with nary a crash and...been using ALL types of cache sizes to boot (even the experimental split cache stuff) no prob. <[ CRT ] INTERPLAY.> Can you upgrade the GSX past 10Mhz? If so, how soon will the public see them? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> It has been done - BUT!!!!! requires refrigeration and/or voltage regulation etc. etc. and MORE expensive processors. But YES it has been done. <[ CRT ] INTERPLAY.> Okay, one final question: What kind of speed difference do you see in GS/OS applications running a higher caches size? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> As Dave Ely says, BIG TIME difference - we have found a big difference in performance from 16k to 32k and esp. to 64k (in fact our split cache experiment has even yielded faster times) so yes it DOES make a difference. <[Ski] M.WOLINSKI2> I notice two rows of Bus Connectors on the 1600 Zip (If that's the right words) One row is obviously to connect to the socket. What's a future use of the other? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> One expansion adaptor gets you to the high-speed processor / the other gets you to the slot signals. We have provided both for future daughter cards and the like... <[Ski] M.WOLINSKI2> OK. Thanks. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> disk cachers/floating point accelerators can use this area. <[Doug] D.DEXHEIMER> What complications show up when a Zip GSX and RamFAST SCSI card are both installed, and what does the 'fix' entail, a modification of the hardware, software, both, and to what product, yours or theirs? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> If you boot up with the RamFAST - the mod is there - you just won't complete the boot process if fix isn't in. It is a small TTL chip on the ZipGSX - nothing more. <[Doug] D.DEXHEIMER> Do you mean I would have to send the Zip GSX back to have you replace the TTl chip? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> That would be it - a simple same-day fix and turn around blue label for about $5 <[Doug] D.DEXHEIMER> OK, why not make it right the first time and save the time and bother of a double trip across the mountains? That's all I have tonight Tony, thanks for your answers! <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> You're pushing it Doug! Seriously - our next revision of the PC board (ver. 1.02) will have the fix routed in - so not to worry. In the meantime, it is a time-consuming fix to implement so unless you have a RamFAST we aren't doing it at present. GA <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Let's go back to the topic of daughterboards that you mentioned earlier...And to the idea you brought up about a math coprocessor that was mentioned in the BBS...How far along is this project? I take it the daughterboard will not require an extra slot? Can more than one daughterboard be daisy chained? Please, do tell more. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Tyler, give me a break... We are so in the thick of the base product that we haven't BEGUN to think of what daughtercard to implement or what - but the stuff IS there so that when we do it will be a simple plug in situation - and, HEY, who says WE have to make the daughtercard???? Lots of third-party companies out there! <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Put it this way, I don't expect one from AE! <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Maybe for THEIR card!?! <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I an not holding my breath. I have a IIe and the 8mhz Zip Chip, and I also have a Apple High Speed SCSI card. Any plans to make a driver for the DMA functions of the SCSI card? I hate not being able to use DMA. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> I will be happy to support ANYONE who wants to patch the DMA drivers - but NO we are not doing one ourselves. Yes, what is needed by the drivers. Seen as how I am the guy that would change them. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Matt - leave me mail - I'll be happy to help you through it. Ok. Hmmmm..not the greatest way to go about things...guess I will give up on being able to use the DMA aspects of the card <[Nick] N.LENZ> I think Matt's talking about the GS while Saxman is talking about the //e Zip. That's all. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> The fix would be the same. if it is so easy then why don't you guys do it? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Because we would have to disassemble the drivers to do it - too much time consumption on this end. <[George] G.KATELE> I have a RamKeeper with 5 megs of memory on it. 3 megs area ROMDisk that I boot from. AppleWorks GS, lots of fonts and the like on it. Will I still be able to boot the RamKeeper with a GSX, will there be a problem with heat, and will it boot faster than the 15 seconds that I have now? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> RamKeeper will work JUST GREAT! <[George] G.KATELE> Will the speed be increased on the RamKeeper and will it still be DMA Compatible? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Yes, and yes. <[George] G.KATELE> Thanks so much, I'm getting mine Thurs..... cannot wait. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Great! <[Hal] H.BOUMA> Ok. Thanks. Tony, I would first like to say that I think the GSX Accelerator sounds like a great product!! I would like to know though how many GS owners have bought accelerators so far and how has the industry responded to this? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Accelerators in total as in not just ours or what? <[Hal] H.BOUMA> In total. Including AE's board... <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> I don't know. But sentiment is growing in the GS world that an accelerator for the GS is a NECESSITY not a luxury...sorry. <[Hal] H.BOUMA> I was just wondering, now that there are two major suppliers of GS accelerators, are we going to see any software to take advantage of this? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> I sure hope so - We will support ANYONE who develops code with caching accelerators in mind. If anyone develops code - call me to find the best methods programming-wise to get every last ounce of speed out of our (and others) product. We look forward to software that will take Macs for a ride... <[Hal] H.BOUMA> Just one more question. In mac speed, how fast is the GSX at 8Mhz and at 10Mhz? Thanks... <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> 8 MHz with 32k (according to Dave) is on par with a Mac LC - in non-co-processor (math) tests a 10 MHz w/ 64k has achieved IIfx speeds (according to Bill) <[Hal] H.BOUMA> WOW!!!! Is that in everything, or just special functions? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> As far as I know - that's everything (not including math co-processor operations) such as window displays and the like... <[Hal] H.BOUMA> Thanks very much!!! This sounds better by the minute! <[Ski] M.WOLINSKI2> What's on Zip's drawing board? Will you all stay with accelerators, or are you going to branch out? What do you feel about the new Macs and their effect on the Apple II line? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Hard to say - I'd like to continue in the accelerator vein - you know, Mac/IBM/Amiga etc. etc., but I'm NOT management, and you know management... <[Ski] M.WOLINSKI2> True.. OK. Thanks. I look forward to future quality products from Zip. Not like my [CENSORED] from "Them" :) <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Apple II forever... At least to the 21st century... <[Ron] MICOL.SYSTEM> Hi Tony...I remember a little while ago, you were talking about selling the low end ZipGS "chip" for a very low price (between $100 and $175)... is that still a goal? Also...I know Sierra and various other software publishers have complained about the speed of the GS... has the possibility of co-marketing with them been explored? Have they been approached? And if so, with what result? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Ron - the lowest we will go at this moment is probably the ZipChipGS (the special is in the low $200s or high $100s - don't remember) but we hope to be speaking to software developers, yes, to get a co-opt program started. The ZipGS ASIC is SO programmable that a lot of GOOD software (games, etc.) can be linked to it. <[Ron] MICOL.SYSTEM> OK... sounds great...Do you still have the goal of selling the low end zip for $100 to $175? (I'd like to see one in every machine, and I know it'll take a great price like that to do it) <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> You got it! <[Ron] MICOL.SYSTEM> OK, Thanks for being here, Tony. <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> I just wanted to mention that anyone wanting to run the Zip GSX beyond slot 4 can purchase an extension cable from Redmond Cable for less than $30. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Whew! <[John] J.KLAR> Are the ZipGS products ROM dependent (like future bugs for 01 machines?) <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> NO - we are PURELY a hardware product. Our software MIGHT have to be upgraded but that's what I've got Dave for!!! <[John] J.KLAR> hehe Thanks <[cullen] C.JOHNSON10> My apologies if this has already been covered, but I have three basic questions: 1) Do your accelerators work with all my hard/software? 2) Can I get them right now, this very minute? 3) What makes it better than Anyone Else's product? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> To be short and sweet : Yes, Yes, and we/our commitment to excellence - ala' the Raiders. Seriously -...the ZipGS series are faster/cooler/lower power/more programmable/less parts thus more likely to last/etc. etc. Thus we consider the ZipGS a BETTER buy. <[cullen] C.JOHNSON10> Why should I get a slot-based accelerator instead of a daughterboard type? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Upgradeability /DMA compatibility <[cullen] C.JOHNSON10> Aha. So it does work with my new Apple Scsi card. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> You got it. <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> It's working with mine, Cullen. <[cullen] C.JOHNSON10> Glad to hear it. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Smack Tyler <[ Jeff ] A2.JEFFH> Can you give us Zip's address and phone number, Tony? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Sure - Here goes: 5601 West Slauson Avenue Suite #190 Culver City, CA 90230 Phone number - (213) 337-1313 FAX (213) 337-9337 There you have it. <[ Jeff ] A2.JEFFH> Ok, Thanks. Any closing comments, Tony? <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Thanks ALL for all your patience during the development of this product - We've had fun...putting this together for y'all - Hope you enjoy - Contact me about any comments or concerns. Thanks! The Zipper <[Tyler] A2.TYLER> Let me add that I am not one to endorse a product very quickly...But after going through 3 TWGSs without any satisfaction...I can highly recommend the Zip GSX board. <[Tony] THE.ZIPPER> Thanks ! <[ Jeff ] A2.JEFFH> I would like to thank Tony for being our guest on GEnie tonight. We don't have a scheduled guest next week, but we will have Ralph Russo in RTC soon...I am working on a date right now. Thanks to everybody for coming tonight! ========================= End of transcript ========================== Permission is hereby granted to not-for-profit user groups to reprint this transcript in its entirety, provided that this notice is included. To sign up for GEnie, follow these simple steps: 1. 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